[Rovernet] Rovernet Digest, Vol 39, Issue 6 [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Coombs, Michael MR
michael.coombs at defence.gov.au
Wed Aug 31 03:10:00 EDT 2016
UNCLASSIFIED
The SD1 does indeed have some very good qualities, it is infinitely easier to work on compared to the P6B and Drum rear brakes are still used on cars today and they last a lot longer than disc pads. Surprisingly the fuel economy of the Federal Fuel injected cars is actually noticably better than the p6B. The only one I have owned was an 83 Vanden Plas with the early type injection (as were nearly all Aus bound cars). It did have some very annoying issues though. It vapor locked on anything more than a short drive when there was less than 50% fuel load (Fixed on later models with plastic fuel lines)I was continually getting shorts of wires to the body till I worked out that the copper wasn't central in the wires, in some places it was actually on the outside! Which is clearly a quality control issue with the suppliers. But it wouldn't have been such an issue if the wiring were simpler. The Power Windows are unbelievably complex. The P6B Nada cars had three wires to each motor and a total of three switch blocks one (master)relay and a self resetting overload protection switch. SD1 has at least two relays in each door with a dozen or more wires going back to more relays behind the dash and a manual reset overload switch which is awfully hard to find. So many extra things to go wrong...only advantage I can see is they can use a cheap switch and lighter wire guage. I think the comment that there were a lack of Production engineers is telling but what isn't said is that that was Management Policy at the time - According to Mark Cs Barnard in his book on the Rover Turbine cars (Pistons to Blades - Rolls Royce Heritige Trust)Everything had to be built as a production item at the time, even development items which require multiple reworks. Looks like a great moneysaver on paper but in reality it means that nothing is properly developed as by the time the product is near ready for application there are no funds remaiing for the final adjustments and actual installation! Which explains why a lot of issues one would have thought ought to be sorted by Launch time weren't and why they took so long to rectify.
Michael
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Michael Coombs
Headquarters Branch
HQ FORCOMD
Victoria Barracks
PADDINGTON NSW 2021
Tel: 612 8335 5058
Fax: 612 8335 6648
Email: michael.coombs at defence.gov.au
http://intranet.defence.gov.au/armyweb/Sites/ForcesComd/comweb.asp?page=201735&Title=Home
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: SD1 redux, apologies to Robert (Robert Heimerl)
2. Re: SD1 redux, apologies to Robert (veetwinrider at yahoo.com)
3. Re: SD1 redux, apologies to Robert (veetwinrider at yahoo.com)
4. Re: SD1 redux, apologies to Robert (Bob Harris)
5. Re: SD1 redux, apologies to Robert (Geff McCarthy)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 14:26:27 -0400
From: Robert Heimerl <robertime4 at gmail.com>
To: Rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org>
Subject: Re: [Rovernet] SD1 redux, apologies to Robert
Message-ID:
<CADk4jijVQG81BzGUW3ud_gd47mqBunVkEzm6jnhLmmuBTMBbmA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Thanks for your additional comments, Lance. As noted elsewhere, I have often been quite critical of the Rover SD1, emphasizing British Leyland's difficulty getting it to market in the midst of bankruptcy, this car's wholly indifferent assembly quality and cheaply made interior materials, in particular, plus BL's lack of concern for customers who had to deal with such glaring inadequacies in a rather expensive vehicle -- as well as practically every other issue you've chosen to highlight in those selected quotes. In fact, I have thoroughly read the compilations of those same articles and even have many of the original magazines themselves in an extensive collection of Rover SD1-related literature.
I often describe the SD1 as "a sometimes-rolling showcase of all that went wrong with the British auto industry in the 1970's and 80's," and did so when speaking with the author of the Curbside Classics piece you posted for Rovernet readers. For whatever reason, he chose not to use that quote -- perhaps because he wished to emphasize this car's positive aspects, which occasionally shine through despite its many well-documented shortcomings.
Further, having on a few occasions interacted with Rover P6's, I agree that their doors close with a fully satisfying sound (rather than a clang) and note that the materials used do not seem to reflect the cost-cutting that became rampant as financial concerns became BL's chief priority. And, yes, at least Rover could have included outboard-mounted disc brakes at the rear when they went to a live axle with a Watts linkage and Boge load-levelers (not itself a bad alternative to the independent rear suspension found on the P6 -- when everything's functioning properly it handles/rides very well). A manual transmission-equipped version is better by far than those equipped with the Borg-Warner 3-speed automatic. It feels as if you're driving an entirely different car. [I've never owned one so equipped, a fully conscious choice.]
It's generally agreed that the problem with the SD1 was not so much its design as its poor execution -- although I can also offer criticisms of the design (the roof line's too low and the door handles, inside and out, are cheap-feeling and/or poorly-placed). One insightful comment on this subject that comes to mind is that of the much-revered Spen King's, who said shortly before his death that the main problem with the SD1 was "the lack of a sufficient number of production engineers." That somehow makes
sense. Then there was that extensive labor unrest. Karen Pender's
well-documented book, Rover SD1: The Complete Story (Crowood Press, 1998), provides the most thorough study available concerning this car's troubled history. I shared a copy with the gentleman who was thinking of doing this article during our discussion ("You've made my day!" he declared upon seeing the Rover at the show field's entrance). Indeed, I've consistently recommended that book to anyone seeking an understanding of how such a disaster came about in the face of the glowing predictions that greeted the SD1's introduction. Indeed, when you get into detail, it's not just one thing, it's many, many things! [Note: I worked as a consumer advocate at an organization co-founded by Ralph Nader and Consumer Reports, so warning others about the short-comings of automotive products comes naturally -- regardless of any personal stake I may have in a particular model's reputation. The Sterling/Rover 800 produced an astonishing number of complaints and as the person responsible for monitoring European cars, I read each and every one, also spoke with many disappointed and, yes, angry owners. To this day, I've not dared own a Sterling -- but have somehow managed to deal with quite a few SD1's. Both gained reputations for being "difficult."]
Finally, here's a link to what remains one of the best summaries of what went wrong with this particular model Rover, written by a fellow RCC member who owned another of the many dozens of lemon(?) yellow examples that made it to our side of the Atlantic, but who also includes a very nice P6 3500S as part of his ever-growing collection of intensely interesting (and typically quirky) cars:
http://www.automobilemag.com/news/autp-0704-1980-land-rover-3500-sd1-history-2/
and
http://www.gq.com/story/jamie-kitman-a-man-and-his-cars-life-of-a-car-enthusiast
The magazine containing this very funny/very sad story arrived at my door one day in 2007 while nearby another Turmeric Yellow Rover SD1 was masquerading as a lawn ornament, awaiting endless hours of devoted attention before it went on to block the driveway of another masochistic
(?) owner who has yet to succeed in his effort to bring it back to life.
The increasingly infamous example Jamie owned was itself passed on to an enthusiast in Texas last year, IIRC. That optimistic fellow is also hoping to get it back on the road someday soon. Which may be the point. It's a rather challenging task, but it can be done. And I hope others among Rovernet's readership will be willing to take on one of the few surviving SD1's and, by doing so, help tell the story of how what looked like a surefire success story instead became a curse to many of its owners -- while helping in the long run to bring about the demise of what once had been one of Britain's finest carmakers. It certainly could have turned out differently. My own Rover runs fairly reliably at the moment and it often evokes inquires along the lines of "where can I find one?" After I explain in more detail the difficulties involved in SD1 ownership -- regardless of the relatively low cost of initial entry -- interest typically wanes.
Despite everything I know about these cars and the negative comments one occasionally encounters, I've managed not to completely lose my own enthusiasm for owning something so different as a Rover. I certainly appreciate the supportive comments and encouragement offered by club members. If I part with the SD1 someday, it will largely be due to discomfort with its seating position -- it's not well-suited to my particular build -- not to these other factors.
Thanks,
Robert
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 6:40 PM, LANCE LA CERTE PSY D via Rovernet < rovernet at rovernet.org> wrote:
> First, it is obvious that Robert and others (Kent in particular) took
> umbrage at my comments. For that I truly apologize. I appreciate how
> much time and energy Robert put in to his SD1 to get it sorted out,
> and I suspect it is indeed a very nice ride. That being said, despite
> being a P6 owner, I grew up in Los Angeles, where there is an abundance of Rovers
> (unlike the dearth in Colorado where I now reside). I had the opportunity
> to drive/ride several SD1s, and none of them rose above the moniker
> 'monstrosity'.
> I've provided some extracts from an even more extensive article
> http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/cars/rover/sd1-rover/the-cars-rover-sd1-
> development-history/ on the SD1.
> Autocar magazine reported on its Rover 3500 automatic, which it ran
> for a year and 11,900 miles: ?The most disappointing feature about the
> Car Of The Year was the sad lack of quality control during building
> and the minimal pre-delivery inspection. Most major fault was a gap
> between windscreen and pillars, which allowed in rain and draughts.
> Hatchback door was badly fitted, and the front doors were re-hung and
> adjusted to get them to close properly and to cut down wind noise. The
> general fit and finish was also poor.?
> The weekly also disliked ?the sadly cheap sounding clang with which
> the doors shut ? most inappropriate for a car of this class.?
> Car magazine ran a similar specification SD1 for 20,000 miles. The
> vehicle suffered from numerous defects. The magazine added: ?The
> finish in the boot annoys us to; it is carpeted, but looks more like a
> DIY job than something stemming from Britain?s most modern car
> factory?The latest bit to go on our car is the plastic cowling under the drivers seat which just fell to bits?
> It needs and deserves to have silly things like the wind noise
> eliminated, it should have a more appealing dashboard and better
> instrumentation, the feeble plastic bits should be replaced by good
> quality fittings and the cabin would benefit from more attractive upholstery.?
> Autocar also ran a 2600 automatic. One of its journalists wrote:
> ?Little things saddened me; the way the fascia and instrument binnacle
> covering PVC material is crudely creased and stuck down at corners,
> the doors shut at a certain tinnyness not found on cars that cost half
> as much? Without a partial respray the bodywork would now be very
> tatty. Rattling noises from the hatchback area indicate a degree of
> poor breeding in a car of such good looks and distinguished pedigree.?
> So, that's where my apology ends relative to the SD!. Bache had some
> great ideas, and obviously the V8 was (and still is) a great engine,
> but when BLMC was in chronic chaos and pushed a car to market so
> poorly made, there is no comparison to the far lesser amount of work it still takes to
> sort out a P6. The interior alone, especially with Ambla upholstery is
> far more sturdy than the cloth interior and cheap plastic which filled the
> cabin of the SD1. Most every one of the SD1 owners I knew in L.A.
> complained about almost every electric switch in the cabin being toast.
> Clearly Lucas is the Prince of Darkness, but the electrics in my P6
> never needed the overhaul an SD1 needs. Of course we can nitpick all
> day, but despite the difficulties of installing rear brake pads in the
> P6, there is no excuse for an "advanced" car such as the SD1 to have
> thrown out the DeDion rear suspension and then outiftted it with rear drum brakes!!!!
> Really?
> If nothing else this has created a spirited exchange. Again my
> apologies to anyone who was offended, but I for one appreciate the
> ability to agree to disagree. I will never tell anyone there comments
> are inappropriate or uncalled for, especially when the subjective criticism is about an
> inanimate object. I will vociferously condem anyone who makes
> inappropriate personal comments.
> Touche'
>
> Lance La Certe, Psy.D.
> Belief is so often the death of reason
>
>
>
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 11:58:57 -0700
From: veetwinrider at yahoo.com
To: Rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org>, Rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org>
Cc: robertime4 <robertime4 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Rovernet] SD1 redux, apologies to Robert
Message-ID:
<1472497137.64141.YahooMailMobile at web160905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Wow, that makes me want to get an SD1! I seem to always fall for orphans and like a challenge. It's what made me like British cars, because my brothers told me not to get them.
Roland, Roverless.
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 11:58:57 -0700
From: veetwinrider at yahoo.com
To: Rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org>, Rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org>
Cc: robertime4 <robertime4 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Rovernet] SD1 redux, apologies to Robert
Message-ID:
<1472497137.64141.YahooMailMobile at web160905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Wow, that makes me want to get an SD1! I seem to always fall for orphans and like a challenge. It's what made me like British cars, because my brothers told me not to get them.
Roland, Roverless.
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 15:42:34 -0400
From: Bob Harris <hbob at bellsouth.net>
To: Rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org>
Subject: Re: [Rovernet] SD1 redux, apologies to Robert
Message-ID: <A5EAD9FB-DA76-4B5E-9BD9-FE7FDB7A3CA2 at bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I remember little kids being taken by our SD1, even saying "That's the kind of car I want some day"
But when we were in the UK a few years back, I was very much looking forward to seeing some nice SD1s. Did not see a single one, even in the large lots at Goodwood and Silverstone. Made me feel a bit better that ours had been so hard to keep going. They couldn't even over there.
> On Aug 29, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Roland via Rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org> wrote:
>
> Wow, that makes me want to get an SD1! I seem to always fall for orphans and like a challenge. It's what made me like British cars, because my brothers told me not to get them.
>
> Roland, Roverless.
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> Rovernet at rovernet.org
> http://rovernet.org/mailman/listinfo/rovernet_rovernet.org
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 08:22:52 -0700
From: "Geff McCarthy" <geffandjulie at comcast.net>
To: "'Rovernet'" <rovernet at rovernet.org>
Subject: Re: [Rovernet] SD1 redux, apologies to Robert
Message-ID: <00f301d202d2$60d05760$22710620$@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I viewed this discussion whilst on the beach in Hampshire...ok, New Hampshire, and offer a late comment. All y'all (note correct plural of Y'all) are more competent than I mechanically.
I swore I would never own an SD1, having been stationed in East Anglia in the mid-60s, flying the F-100 Super Sabre, and going to races at Snetterton, Brands Hatch etc. I had a Series I Elan, the car you wore, the best mechanical object I experienced, until the F-16, the airplane you wear, the thought Fighter. If you think it, it will do it...!
Anyway, when "seconded" to the RAF at Farnborough from the USAF in 89, I ended up accidentally buying a P5, and later a P6B, both of which I sold upon posting back to the Land of the Big BX (base exchange, the store).
I bought a tatty P68 and restored it somewhat; its bonnet is being repainted as I write.
For reasons still not clear to me, I became interested in an SD1 and bought a splendid, low mileage California example, maintained far better than I would have. It is far from perfect, but surprisingly rewarding, and has given me little trouble. I need to rehab the A/C, and upgrade the anemic engine, but otherwise it is reliable and useful. It does not turn heads like my Brigade Red P6, but ...vanity is a minor sin anyway.
As for the 827, just last night, about 0030, I had to wiggle wires again to get the interior lights on. The a/c has quit again also. A rational person would have junked it long ago, but it is a screaming roundabout racer, the fastest car I have owned since my 63 Plymouth Fury Golden Commando 383 4 barrel, a splendid white/red convertible, with 330hp and just 3300lb weight. In a slight upgrade, at 7000'altitude in Colorado, I "buried the needle" - past 120mph with ease, and most Corvettes feared me, at least in a straight line.
Enjoyable repartee here!
AvMedSafe
Geoffrey W. McCarthy MD MBA DipAvMed
677 NW Melinda Ave Portland OR USA 97210
503-241-8468(h) 503-799-3809 (mobile)
-----Original Message-----
From: Rovernet [mailto:rovernet-bounces at rovernet.org] On Behalf Of Robert Heimerl via Rovernet
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 11:26 AM
To: Rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org>
Cc: Robert Heimerl <robertime4 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Rovernet] SD1 redux, apologies to Robert
Thanks for your additional comments, Lance. As noted elsewhere, I have often been quite critical of the Rover SD1, emphasizing British Leyland's difficulty getting it to market in the midst of bankruptcy, this car's wholly indifferent assembly quality and cheaply made interior materials, in particular, plus BL's lack of concern for customers who had to deal with such glaring inadequacies in a rather expensive vehicle -- as well as practically every other issue you've chosen to highlight in those selected quotes. In fact, I have thoroughly read the compilations of those same articles and even have many of the original magazines themselves in an extensive collection of Rover SD1-related literature.
I often describe the SD1 as "a sometimes-rolling showcase of all that went wrong with the British auto industry in the 1970's and 80's," and did so when speaking with the author of the Curbside Classics piece you posted for Rovernet readers. For whatever reason, he chose not to use that quote -- perhaps because he wished to emphasize this car's positive aspects, which occasionally shine through despite its many well-documented shortcomings.
Further, having on a few occasions interacted with Rover P6's, I agree that their doors close with a fully satisfying sound (rather than a clang) and note that the materials used do not seem to reflect the cost-cutting that became rampant as financial concerns became BL's chief priority. And, yes, at least Rover could have included outboard-mounted disc brakes at the rear when they went to a live axle with a Watts linkage and Boge load-levelers (not itself a bad alternative to the independent rear suspension found on the P6 -- when everything's functioning properly it handles/rides very well). A manual transmission-equipped version is better by far than those equipped with the Borg-Warner 3-speed automatic. It feels as if you're driving an entirely different car. [I've never owned one so equipped, a fully conscious choice.]
It's generally agreed that the problem with the SD1 was not so much its design as its poor execution -- although I can also offer criticisms of the design (the roof line's too low and the door handles, inside and out, are cheap-feeling and/or poorly-placed). One insightful comment on this subject that comes to mind is that of the much-revered Spen King's, who said shortly before his death that the main problem with the SD1 was "the lack of a sufficient number of production engineers." That somehow makes
sense. Then there was that extensive labor unrest. Karen Pender's
well-documented book, Rover SD1: The Complete Story (Crowood Press, 1998), provides the most thorough study available concerning this car's troubled history. I shared a copy with the gentleman who was thinking of doing this article during our discussion ("You've made my day!" he declared upon seeing the Rover at the show field's entrance). Indeed, I've consistently recommended that book to anyone seeking an understanding of how such a disaster came about in the face of the glowing predictions that greeted the SD1's introduction. Indeed, when you get into detail, it's not just one thing, it's many, many things! [Note: I worked as a consumer advocate at an organization co-founded by Ralph Nader and Consumer Reports, so warning others about the short-comings of automotive products comes naturally -- regardless of any personal stake I may have in a particular model's reputation. The Sterling/Rover 800 produced an astonishing number of complaints and as the person responsible for monitoring European cars, I read each and every one, also spoke with many disappointed and, yes, angry owners. To this day, I've not dared own a Sterling -- but have somehow managed to deal with quite a few SD1's. Both gained reputations for being "difficult."]
Finally, here's a link to what remains one of the best summaries of what went wrong with this particular model Rover, written by a fellow RCC member who owned another of the many dozens of lemon(?) yellow examples that made it to our side of the Atlantic, but who also includes a very nice P6 3500S as part of his ever-growing collection of intensely interesting (and typically quirky) cars:
http://www.automobilemag.com/news/autp-0704-1980-land-rover-3500-sd1-history-2/
and
http://www.gq.com/story/jamie-kitman-a-man-and-his-cars-life-of-a-car-enthusiast
The magazine containing this very funny/very sad story arrived at my door one day in 2007 while nearby another Turmeric Yellow Rover SD1 was masquerading as a lawn ornament, awaiting endless hours of devoted attention before it went on to block the driveway of another masochistic
(?) owner who has yet to succeed in his effort to bring it back to life.
The increasingly infamous example Jamie owned was itself passed on to an enthusiast in Texas last year, IIRC. That optimistic fellow is also hoping to get it back on the road someday soon. Which may be the point. It's a rather challenging task, but it can be done. And I hope others among Rovernet's readership will be willing to take on one of the few surviving SD1's and, by doing so, help tell the story of how what looked like a surefire success story instead became a curse to many of its owners -- while helping in the long run to bring about the demise of what once had been one of Britain's finest carmakers. It certainly could have turned out differently. My own Rover runs fairly reliably at the moment and it often evokes inquires along the lines of "where can I find one?" After I explain in more detail the difficulties involved in SD1 ownership -- regardless of the relatively low cost of initial entry -- interest typically wanes.
Despite everything I know about these cars and the negative comments one occasionally encounters, I've managed not to completely lose my own enthusiasm for owning something so different as a Rover. I certainly appreciate the supportive comments and encouragement offered by club members. If I part with the SD1 someday, it will largely be due to discomfort with its seating position -- it's not well-suited to my particular build -- not to these other factors.
Thanks,
Robert
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 6:40 PM, LANCE LA CERTE PSY D via Rovernet < rovernet at rovernet.org> wrote:
> First, it is obvious that Robert and others (Kent in particular) took
> umbrage at my comments. For that I truly apologize. I appreciate how
> much time and energy Robert put in to his SD1 to get it sorted out,
> and I suspect it is indeed a very nice ride. That being said, despite
> being a P6 owner, I grew up in Los Angeles, where there is an abundance of Rovers
> (unlike the dearth in Colorado where I now reside). I had the opportunity
> to drive/ride several SD1s, and none of them rose above the moniker
> 'monstrosity'.
> I've provided some extracts from an even more extensive article
> http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/cars/rover/sd1-rover/the-cars-rover-sd1-
> development-history/ on the SD1.
> Autocar magazine reported on its Rover 3500 automatic, which it ran
> for a year and 11,900 miles: ?The most disappointing feature about the
> Car Of The Year was the sad lack of quality control during building
> and the minimal pre-delivery inspection. Most major fault was a gap
> between windscreen and pillars, which allowed in rain and draughts.
> Hatchback door was badly fitted, and the front doors were re-hung and
> adjusted to get them to close properly and to cut down wind noise. The
> general fit and finish was also poor.?
> The weekly also disliked ?the sadly cheap sounding clang with which
> the doors shut ? most inappropriate for a car of this class.?
> Car magazine ran a similar specification SD1 for 20,000 miles. The
> vehicle suffered from numerous defects. The magazine added: ?The
> finish in the boot annoys us to; it is carpeted, but looks more like a
> DIY job than something stemming from Britain?s most modern car
> factory?The latest bit to go on our car is the plastic cowling under
> the drivers seat which just fell to bits? It needs and deserves to
> have silly things like the wind noise eliminated, it should have a
> more appealing dashboard and better instrumentation, the feeble
> plastic bits should be replaced by good quality fittings and the cabin would benefit from more attractive upholstery.?
> Autocar also ran a 2600 automatic. One of its journalists wrote:
> ?Little things saddened me; the way the fascia and instrument binnacle
> covering PVC material is crudely creased and stuck down at corners,
> the doors shut at a certain tinnyness not found on cars that cost half
> as much? Without a partial respray the bodywork would now be very
> tatty. Rattling noises from the hatchback area indicate a degree of
> poor breeding in a car of such good looks and distinguished pedigree.?
> So, that's where my apology ends relative to the SD!. Bache had some
> great ideas, and obviously the V8 was (and still is) a great engine,
> but when BLMC was in chronic chaos and pushed a car to market so
> poorly made, there is no comparison to the far lesser amount of work it still takes to
> sort out a P6. The interior alone, especially with Ambla upholstery is
> far more sturdy than the cloth interior and cheap plastic which filled the
> cabin of the SD1. Most every one of the SD1 owners I knew in L.A.
> complained about almost every electric switch in the cabin being toast.
> Clearly Lucas is the Prince of Darkness, but the electrics in my P6
> never needed the overhaul an SD1 needs. Of course we can nitpick all
> day, but despite the difficulties of installing rear brake pads in the
> P6, there is no excuse for an "advanced" car such as the SD1 to have
> thrown out the DeDion rear suspension and then outiftted it with rear drum brakes!!!!
> Really?
> If nothing else this has created a spirited exchange. Again my
> apologies to anyone who was offended, but I for one appreciate the
> ability to agree to disagree. I will never tell anyone there comments
> are inappropriate or uncalled for, especially when the subjective criticism is about an
> inanimate object. I will vociferously condem anyone who makes
> inappropriate personal comments.
> Touche'
>
> Lance La Certe, Psy.D.
> Belief is so often the death of reason
>
>
>
> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
> scrubbed...
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> org/attachments/20160826/28003c12/attachment.html>
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> Rovernet at rovernet.org
> http://rovernet.org/mailman/listinfo/rovernet_rovernet.org
>
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End of Rovernet Digest, Vol 39, Issue 6
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