[Rovernet] Resource help [Federal 3500S master cylinder]

Vern Klukas vern at inkspotco.com
Thu Jan 12 12:34:54 EST 2017


I agree with Dermot. I have seen some failures with resleeved cylinders, namely excessive wear when the sleeve is brass (rear calipers specifically) and a few master cylinders that pushed the sleeve out because not enough locktite was used to form a complete fillet at the blind end of the sleeve.

That said, it is a fairly tight tolerance procedure so having somebody competent & experienced doing the work is essential.

Yours
Vern


> On Jan 12, 2017, at 5:59 AM, Dermot Harvey via Rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org> wrote:
> 
> I have to disagree that sleeving is not a good way to rebuild a master cylinder. I have been having them resleeved for 30 plus years and have never had a failure. I think that Stainless Steel is the ideal material as it does not corrode and can be highly polished. However, it has to be done by a highly skilled professional, which is becoming increasingly difficult. A stainless resleeved clutch slave cylinder in a P6 will last almost  forever instead of having to replace it every few years.
> 
> 
> Dermot Harvey
> 
> On Jan 9, 2017, at 4:34 AM, LANCE LA CERTE PSY D via Rovernet wrote:
> 
>> I ordered several parts from Wins for my conversion, but it was only afterwards that we discovered the leak in the master cylinder.   This is when I also found Welsh and have ordered the same brake master cylinder which Steve referenced.   If I had known I would have gotten a master cylinder from Wins as well, but I didn't want to pay exorbitant shipping for yet one more piece.
>> 
>> 
>> Ted Ax and I discussed his experience with boring and sleeving, and his vast experience confirms Steve's experiences that the sleeved systems just don't seem to hold up well over time.    I suspect Steve and I will be the experimental "subjects" to see just how good the Welsh units are with their 'better' seals.
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks to all who have been contributing their ideas, expertise and support as we move forward with this surgery.  So far I've pulled out the 'automatic' pedal box,  the old master cylinder, and the 'collar' which bolts to the firewall to which the master cylinder bolts and interfaces with the pushrod.   We have started mocking up the manual pedal box and Ted will begin tomorrow fabricating a new plate for the 'collar' which will allow enough space for both the brake and clutch master cylinders.  The 'manual pedal' box will need some tweaking in terms of bending the pedals slightly because the accelerator pedal linkage in the driver's footwell and the 'new' brake lever impede one another.   We are also going to have to figure out how to retrofit the brake light switch from the automatic pedal box as it is not part of the manual pedal box (In the automatic pedal box, this switch is activated by a crescent shaped piece of metal which is tack welded to the automatic brake pedal
>> collar/bushing through which the shaft runs)
>> 
>> 
>> Once all of the above has been properly fabricated and installed, we'll pull the BW35 and begin mating the new bell housing and Celica 5 speed gear box to the drivetrain.
>> 
>> 
>> I'll keep you posted.
>> 
>> 
>> Lance
>> 
>> 
>> Lance La Certe, Psy.D.
>> 
>> I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.
>> 
>> [Get this quote on a t-shirt!]<http://www.zazzle.com/api/create/at-238192362736820030?rf=238192362736820030&ax=DesignBlast&sr=250851256328789740&cg=0&ed=true&eds=Inline&ds=true&fwd=ProductPage&tc=795&ic=&quote=The+quickest+way+to+a+man%27s+heart+is+not+through+the+stomach+but+through+his+chest%2c+with+an+axe.&source=&continueUrl=http%3a%2f%2fcoolquotescollection.com%2f795%2fthe-quickest-way-to-a-man-s-heart-is-not-through-the-stomach-but-through-his&rut=Back+to+Cool+Quotes+Collection>t-shirt<http://www.zazzle.com/api/create/at-238192362736820030?rf=238192362736820030&ax=DesignBlast&sr=250851256328789740&cg=0&ed=true&eds=Inline&ds=true&fwd=ProductPage&tc=795&ic=&quote=The+quickest+way+to+a+man%27s+heart+is+not+through+the+stomach+but+through+his+chest%2c+with+an+axe.&source=&continueUrl=http%3a%2f%2fcoolquotescollection.com%2f795%2fthe-quickest-way-to-a-man-s-heart-is-not-through-the-stomach-but-through-his&rut=Back+to+Cool+Quotes+Collection>
>> [See comments and details]<http://coolquotescollection.com/795/the-quickest-way-to-a-man-s-heart-is-not-through-the-stomach-but-through-his>talk<http://coolquotescollection.com/795/the-quickest-way-to-a-man-s-heart-is-not-through-the-stomach-but-through-his>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: Rovernet <rovernet-bounces at rovernet.org> on behalf of Steve Manwell via Rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2017 8:19 AM
>> To: Rovernet
>> Cc: Steve Manwell
>> Subject: Re: [Rovernet] Resource help [Federal 3500S master cylinder]
>> 
>> For most brake cylinders I would recommend having the bore sleeved and
>> rebuilding with new seals, but there are a few issues with that approach
>> to this master cylinder, and currently new Jaguar cylinders are
>> available at a reasonable price.
>> 
>> Two different master cylinders that I had sleeved and rebuilt both
>> started to leak within one to two years after the rebuild. The first one
>> had the cylinder bore and the small air valve piston bore sleeved and it
>> was assembled with new seals.  The second one was rebuilt in England
>> through a friend there, and not only the bores were sleeved, but also
>> the O.D. of the piston -- the seal against this surface is supposed to
>> keep fluid in the cylinder.  I thought it should be better than new, but
>> it too leaked somewhat after one year and six months later the leak was
>> draining the reservoir in a few days.
>> 
>> Last fall I was researching this issue and found this new Jaguar master
>> cylinder for $200:
>> http://www.welshent.com/product_info.php?sku=C26767    What caught my
>> attention with this one was the claim that "These master cylinders have
>> seals more dependable than those currently on the market."  The photo on
>> the web page shows a cylinder with "Lucas" cast on the body, but the one
>> I received has Lockheed labeling. Time will tell, but I installed the
>> cylinder and initially there are no leaks.  I asked the vendor if their
>> new seal kits had the same "more dependable" seals as the new cylinder;
>> they thought they did and I ordered some.  I am skeptical of the
>> separate seal kits, because the rubber boot on the new cylinder has
>> Lockheed labeling and numbers cast onto it, whereas the kit seals are in
>> generic looking packaging and the rubber parts lack the Lockheed labels
>> and numbers.
>> 
>> On the older of my two failed master cylinders, the rubber boot had
>> become hard as a rock.  The boot on the more recent rebuild seemed to be
>> partially hardened too.  It appears that many of the available seal kits
>> are poor quality.  Does anyone know of a source of OEM Lockheed seal
>> kits or other seals that are known to last?
>> 
>> I have given both my rebuilt cylinders to a rebuilder to disect, and
>> asked them to research better seals too.
>> 
>> --Steve
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/8/2017 4:25 AM, Geoff via Rovernet wrote:
>>> Both White Post and San Jose Power Brake have lots of parts and could probably build one. Won't be cheap.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 6, 2017, at 16:06, LANCE LA CERTE PSY D via Rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Bill, this was very helpful, and I went ahead and ordered a new Jag brake master cylinder to replace the original Rover.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks again,   Lance
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Lance La Certe, Psy.D.
>>>> 
>>>> I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.
>>>> 
>>>> [Get this quote on a t-shirt!]<http://www.zazzle.com/api/create/at-238192362736820030?rf=238192362736820030&ax=DesignBlast&sr=250851256328789740&cg=0&ed=true&eds=Inline&ds=true&fwd=ProductPage&tc=795&ic=&quote=The+quickest+way+to+a+man%27s+heart+is+not+through+the+stomach+but+through+his+chest%2c+with+an+axe.&source=&continueUrl=http%3a%2f%2fcoolquotescollection.com%2f795%2fthe-quickest-way-to-a-man-s-heart-is-not-through-the-stomach-but-through-his&rut=Back+to+Cool+Quotes+Collection>t-shirt<http://www.zazzle.com/api/create/at-238192362736820030?rf=238192362736820030&ax=DesignBlast&sr=250851256328789740&cg=0&ed=true&eds=Inline&ds=true&fwd=ProductPage&tc=795&ic=&quote=The+quickest+way+to+a+man%27s+heart+is+not+through+the+stomach+but+through+his+chest%2c+with+an+axe.&source=&continueUrl=http%3a%2f%2fcoolquotescollection.com%2f795%2fthe-quickest-way-to-a-man-s-heart-is-not-through-the-stomach-but-through-his&rut=Back+to+Cool+Quotes+Collection>
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Rovernet <rovernet-bounces at rovernet.org> on behalf of magnet--- via Rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2017 4:20 PM
>>>> To: Rovernet
>>>> Cc: magnet at ican.net
>>>> Subject: Re: [Rovernet] Resource help
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Lance,
>>>> 
>>>> The Rover part is hard, if not impossible, to find.  But it may be
>>>> replaced with the m/cyl for a Jaguar 420 / V-12 E-type, TRW No. C26767
>>>> L007C, which is the same except for the bore of the little air control
>>>> valve -- 5/16 instead of 3/8, if I recall correctly.  Makes no
>>>> difference in practice, just good to know if you're buying a rebuild kit.
>>>> 
>>>> Hope this helps,
>>>> 
>>>> Bill Daddis
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 04-Jan-17 5:50 PM, LANCE LA CERTE PSY D via Rovernet wrote:
>>>>> Trying to find a source for a new brake master cylinder,   1970 3500S   NADA.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks in advance for any help.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Lance
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Lance La Certe, Psy.D.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.
>>>>> 
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