[Rovernet] Rovernet Digest, Vol 32, Issue 14

[Kellogg, Charles]

Relative to the rear-main-seal  issue, it has been stated that "The newer
style seals seldom leak." I can't say that rings true from my experience.
The rear-main-seals on all Buick-derived modern Rover V-8 products leak
endemically..typically not so badly they require changing all that much but
they are far from infallible in our experience servicing Range Rovers and
Discoverys in my shop. We see dozens of them in our service bays every year
and seeping rear main seals are the rule rather than the exception. I am
confident the rope-type seal should be source-able in a N.O.S lower-end
gasket set and if the extra challenge of changing the block to the newer
type seal is daunting I would be inclined to replace the original seal with
a N.O.S item. After all, the original one has lasted all this long, hasn't
it?

Charles Kellogg
Director of Restorations
Dare Britannia, Ltd.
Olympia, WA  98512, USA
http://www.darebritannia.com/

Voice 360-866-2254
Fax 360-866-6970
Cell 360-789-5070

[image: New Logo]

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 9:00 AM, <rovernet-request at rovernet.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Rear Main engine seal issue (Jonathan Present)
>    2. Re: Rear Main engine seal issue (pierre janusz)
>    3. Re: Rear Main engine seal issue (GeffMcCarthy)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 00:12:03 -0800
> From: Jonathan Present <jpresent at pacbell.net>
> To: rovernet at rovernet.org
> Cc: Ben Saunders <bsaunders at firstva.com>, Rover Man
>         <P4roverman at yahoo.com>, Kent Kinard <kkinard at att.net>
> Subject: [Rovernet] Rear Main engine seal issue
> Message-ID: <BA639B4E-7B62-45ED-A5A8-67F0C8157B34 at pacbell.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> I have consulted quite a bit with with Kent Kinard in regard to this
> issue, and he has educated me in regard to the issues involved. I am
> wondering if any of you folks have had this problem, and if so, how you
> dealt with it. Hopefully, without incurring a lot of costs?rebuilding the
> engine, removing it, etc.
>
> I have a leaking rear main seal, I am told it cannot be fixed without a
> complete engine rebuild. It is a rope type seal, I have been informed that
> removing it may cause more problems than it fixes. I have been unable to
> locate a company that manufactures a  a lip-type viton seal for the 215
> cubic inch motor. Below is a listing of what I have heard about this
> problem:
>
> Modern replacement rope seals are made without asbestos and do not last
> like the originals.  When rebuilding a rope seal engine, it is necessary to
> modify the crankshaft and the area at the rear of the block where the seal
> fits.  These are machine shop operations, but they are not difficult or
> expensive once the engine is disassembled for a rebuild.  Once the
> machining is done, the engine builder can use a lip-type neoprene seal from
> a post-1976 Rover V8 engine.  The newer style seals seldom leak.  That's
> the good news.
>
> The bad news is that you will not stop the oil leak any other way. You MAY
> be able to diminish the leak for a while by fitting a new rope seal to the
> rear main cap only, in effect renewing half the sealing surface, but this
> will not solve the problem.  Most Rover V8 drivers, when faced with this
> issue, abandon their cars or swap in a later style engine from and SD1 or
> Range Rover, but it is not difficult to do the block and crank
> modifications to the original engine.  In any case, this is an "engine out"
> operation, requiring down time and considerable expense. Yes, the engine
> pours out lots of oil when the rear seal is bad.  To minimize down time I
> recommend doing the rebuild using a different block.  While you are at it,
> use SD1 heads in the rebuild if your present cylinder heads have not
> received hardened valves and seats.
>
> Might be worthwhile to find out if anyone else has come up with an after
> market solution.
> there are a lot of clever people out there. Cars always have a host of
> problems when you start doing this
> kind of work. Every wire, hose, clamp, etc. has been in there for a long
> time, when you start moving that
> stuff it all falls apart, even if the engine rebuild is perfect (and it
> seldom is).  If you can't do a lot of the work yourself, it will cost a
> fortune just to get all of the small problems that happen sorted out (not
> too mention
> the engine rebuild). I have heard that people have made templates out of
> cork, aluminum in the past that may or may not have worked.
>
> If you swap the engine the numbers won't match, reduces the value for a
> collector.
>
> Maybe talk to some Rover clubs in the U.K to see if anyone has an
> after-market seal that can solve the issue. Rebuilding and machining the
> block is a non-starter.  Replacing the seal requires moving the trans back,
> pulling the old seal, and installing the new one. Nowhere near the rebuild
> scenario. Someone, somewhere has either made a replacement seal that will
> work, has a small stock of
> original seals, or has found some other solution.  you just need to find
> the person who has done it
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> John Present
>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 06:49:41 -0500
> From: pierre janusz <pjemail at aol.com>
> To: rovernet at rovernet.org
> Subject: Re: [Rovernet] Rear Main engine seal issue
> Message-ID: <1524f6b58c7-505-12913 at webprd-a23.mail.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I do not believe that replacing the early rope type seal is an engine out
> job. As you say you can easily renew the lower half of the seal in the rear
> cap, but it is possible to change the upper part as well. If it is no
> longer providing a seal it should be possible to pull out the old one
> without much difficulty. Then to put the new one in you need to attach the
> new one to a device known as a Chinese finger, which is made up of small
> links, a bit like an oil filter wrench, and you feed the finger into the
> gap where the seal fits. Once it comes out the other side having gone round
> the top you can pull the rope seal into pockosition.
>
>
> If you need some new old stock rope seals I have these available.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Pierre
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Present via Rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org>
> To: rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org>
> CC: Jonathan Present <jpresent at pacbell.net>; Rover Man <
> P4roverman at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 8:12
> Subject: [Rovernet] Rear Main engine seal issue
> o
> I have consulted quite a bit with with Kent Kinard in regard to this
> issue, and he has educated me in regard to the issues involved. I am
> wondering if any of you folks have had this problem, and if so, how you
> dealt with it. Hopefully, without incurring a lot of costs?rebuilding the
> engine, removing it, etc.
>
> I have a leaking rear main seal, I am told it cannot be fixed without a
> complete engine rebuild. It is a rope type seal, I have been informed that
> removing it may cause more problems than it fixes. I have been unable to
> locate a company that manufactures a  a lip-type viton seal for the 215
> cubic inch motor. Below is a listing of what I have heard about this
> problem:
>
> Modern replacement rope seals are made without asbestos and do not last
> like the originals.  When rebuilding a rope seal engine, it is necessary to
> modify the crankshaft and the area at the rear of the block where the seal
> fits.  These are machine shop operations, but they are not difficult or
> expensive once the engine is disassembled for a rebuild.  Once the
> machining is done, the engine builder can use a lip-type neoprene seal from
> a post-1976 Rover V8 engine.  The newer style seals seldom leak.  That's
> the good news.
>
> The bad news is that you will not stop the oil leak any other way. You MAY
> be able to diminish the leak for a while by fitting a new rope seal to the
> rear main cap only, in effect renewing half the sealing surface, but this
> will not solve the problem.  Most Rover V8 drivers, when faced with this
> issue, abandon their cars or swap in a later style engine from and SD1 or
> Range Rover, but it is not difficult to do the block and crank
> modifications to the original engine.  In any case, this is an "engine out"
> operation, requiring down time and considerable expense. Yes, the engine
> pours out lots of oil when the rear seal is bad.  To minimize down time I
> recommend doing the rebuild using a different block.  While you are at it,
> use SD1 heads in the rebuild if your present cylinder heads have not
> received hardened valves and seats.
>
> Might be worthwhile to find out if anyone else has come up with an after
> market solution.
> there are a lot of clever people out there. Cars always have a host of
> problems when you start doing this
> kind of work. Every wire, hose, clamp, etc. has been in there for a long
> time, when you start moving that
> stuff it all falls apart, even if the engine rebuild is perfect (and it
> seldom is).  If you can't do a lot of the work yourself, it will cost a
> fortune just to get all of the small problems that happen sorted out (not
> too mention
> the engine rebuild). I have heard that people have made templates out of
> cork, aluminum in the past that may or may not have worked.
>
> If you swap the engine the numbers won't match, reduces the value for a
> collector.
>
> Maybe talk to some Rover clubs in the U.K to see if anyone has an
> after-market seal that can solve the issue. Rebuilding and machining the
> block is a non-starter.  Replacing the seal requires moving the trans back,
> pulling the old seal, and installing the new one. Nowhere near the rebuild
> scenario. Someone, somewhere has either made a replacement seal that will
> work, has a small stock of
> original seals, or has found some other solution.  you just need to find
> the person who has done it
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> John Present
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 08:21:45 -0800
> From: "GeffMcCarthy" <geffandjulie at comcast.net>
> To: "'Rovernet'" <rovernet at rovernet.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rovernet] Rear Main engine seal issue
> Message-ID: <003901d15143$29011310$7b033930$@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="utf-8"
>
> I am incompetent in this engine problem, but ....would it be the same as
> the Buick-Olds 215 here in the US?  If so, try NAPA, Rockauto, etc.
>
> AvMedSafe
> Geoffrey W. McCarthy MD MBA DipAvMed
> 677 NW Melinda Ave Portland OR USA 97210
> 503-241-8468(h) 503-799-3809 (mobile)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rovernet [mailto:rovernet-bounces at rovernet.org] On Behalf Of pierre
> janusz via Rovernet
> Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2016 3:50 AM
> To: rovernet at rovernet.org
> Cc: pierre janusz <pjemail at aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [Rovernet] Rear Main engine seal issue
>
> I do not believe that replacing the early rope type seal is an engine out
> job. As you say you can easily renew the lower half of the seal in the rear
> cap, but it is possible to change the upper part as well. If it is no
> longer providing a seal it should be possible to pull out the old one
> without much difficulty. Then to put the new one in you need to attach the
> new one to a device known as a Chinese finger, which is made up of small
> links, a bit like an oil filter wrench, and you feed the finger into the
> gap where the seal fits. Once it comes out the other side having gone round
> the top you can pull the rope seal into pockosition.
>
>
> If you need some new old stock rope seals I have these available.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Pierre
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Present via Rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org>
> To: rovernet <rovernet at rovernet.org>
> CC: Jonathan Present <jpresent at pacbell.net>; Rover Man <
> P4roverman at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 8:12
> Subject: [Rovernet] Rear Main engine seal issue o I have consulted quite a
> bit with with Kent Kinard in regard to this issue, and he has educated me
> in regard to the issues involved. I am wondering if any of you folks have
> had this problem, and if so, how you dealt with it. Hopefully, without
> incurring a lot of costs?rebuilding the engine, removing it, etc.
>
> I have a leaking rear main seal, I am told it cannot be fixed without a
> complete engine rebuild. It is a rope type seal, I have been informed that
> removing it may cause more problems than it fixes. I have been unable to
> locate a company that manufactures a  a lip-type viton seal for the 215
> cubic inch motor. Below is a listing of what I have heard about this
> problem:
>
> Modern replacement rope seals are made without asbestos and do not last
> like the originals.  When rebuilding a rope seal engine, it is necessary to
> modify the crankshaft and the area at the rear of the block where the seal
> fits.  These are machine shop operations, but they are not difficult or
> expensive once the engine is disassembled for a rebuild.  Once the
> machining is done, the engine builder can use a lip-type neoprene seal from
> a post-1976 Rover V8 engine.  The newer style seals seldom leak.  That's
> the good news.
>
> The bad news is that you will not stop the oil leak any other way. You MAY
> be able to diminish the leak for a while by fitting a new rope seal to the
> rear main cap only, in effect renewing half the sealing surface, but this
> will not solve the problem.  Most Rover V8 drivers, when faced with this
> issue, abandon their cars or swap in a later style engine from and SD1 or
> Range Rover, but it is not difficult to do the block and crank
> modifications to the original engine.  In any case, this is an "engine out"
> operation, requiring down time and considerable expense. Yes, the engine
> pours out lots of oil when the rear seal is bad.  To minimize down time I
> recommend doing the rebuild using a different block.  While you are at it,
> use SD1 heads in the rebuild if your present cylinder heads have not
> received hardened valves and seats.
>
> Might be worthwhile to find out if anyone else has come up with an after
> market solution.
> there are a lot of clever people out there. Cars always have a host of
> problems when you start doing this kind of work. Every wire, hose, clamp,
> etc. has been in there for a long time, when you start moving that stuff it
> all falls apart, even if the engine rebuild is perfect (and it seldom is).
> If you can't do a lot of the work yourself, it will cost a fortune just to
> get all of the small problems that happen sorted out (not too mention the
> engine rebuild). I have heard that people have made templates out of cork,
> aluminum in the past that may or may not have worked.
>
> If you swap the engine the numbers won't match, reduces the value for a
> collector.
>
> Maybe talk to some Rover clubs in the U.K to see if anyone has an
> after-market seal that can solve the issue. Rebuilding and machining the
> block is a non-starter.  Replacing the seal requires moving the trans back,
> pulling the old seal, and installing the new one. Nowhere near the rebuild
> scenario. Someone, somewhere has either made a replacement seal that will
> work, has a small stock of original seals, or has found some other
> solution.  you just need to find the person who has done it
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> John Present
>
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> End of Rovernet Digest, Vol 32, Issue 14
> ****************************************
>
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